EQMac.com

I mean this with the utmost respect. But your entire post was a big mouthful of poo.

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+1 - I agree.

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Well like I said, the open raid system is already set up and organized on a regular basis by Dark Conquest. If all the non Temerity and non Destiny people showed up to them and supported their efforts they'd make good strides and their combined open raid force would be at least as big as tem or destiny raids.

The DC raids seem to be exactly where all the non destiny/tem guild people should be, in ssraaa/VT/tier 1 PoP gearing up. Support those open raids, gear up some and then I am sure DC will take it to the next level up in PoP.

I guess I am not understanding what the problem is. If you guys want it, its there already. Sure it will be longer and harder that way, but thats progression. You guys want to gear up on appropriate content (current DC open raids) and progress through your own efforts (hard but possible), or be carried into the EP's on temerity/Destinys backs.. without actually being in either of those two guilds? (not going to happen).

When is the next DC open raid? Guildleaders... tell your people to start attending if progression is a goal. Get er done.


regardeing Red's post: I think Tem will break into Time, it just may take way longer then a lot of people have patients for. Remember the feeling when the spider Archwalker and Sigismund was killed? It was great, I just wish things like that could happen more often then once a year............ (i'll stop myself dead in my tracks right here at this point, before going into what policies "I" think would retain players and boost attendence....)

I think the problem here that needs to be addressed is that numbers alone won't get you to the EPs. I like a lot of DC people, I enjoy grouping with them, and I've occasionally been known to go hang out on one of their open raids when I have a free evening and Tem isn't raiding. I say all of that hoping that the rest of this doesn't come off as trying to be insulting: I just don't see an open DC raid having the right stuff in terms of discipline, leadership, and average raider skill level to take on hard PoP targets. I'm not trying to knock the guild or their open raid system. They are making progress, and some people have their reasons for wanting to be in that guild (or along on the open raids), hitting those targets, in that style. I just don't think they're going to make it far in PoP by adding more numbers to the existing formula. Not every guild has to have an achievable goal of progression through the endgame in any finite amount of time, so that's ok.

One of those things that took a while to sink in for me here is that the lack of an upcoming "next expansion" really changes the dynamics here. On PC servers back during these eras, there were always a handful of guilds that conquered high end content while it was still the highest, and then a lot of very capable, strong 2nd tier guilds that didn't get it completely down until after the next expansion was out (new spells, content nerfs, levels, AAs, etc...). That luxury doesn't exist here, so there's really no such thing. You can't be 2nd tier and finish the content progression here, you have to be the kind of guild that can get it down without waiting for the next expansion, or you're not getting it down at all. Luckily we do get a break on timing here: We have virtually infinite time at this expansion level to take it easy/casual on the raiding schedule and handle membership turnover crises. It still doesn't change the top-tier gear/skill/discipline requirements side of things though. IMHO, only Destiny and Tem are leading these sorts of raids on this server. Nobody else has shown an aptitude for the raid leadership and guild management skills necessary to get the job done, and the few that have in those two guilds aren't likely to spend a lot of time trying to make it happen for anyone else.

Edited to add: I'm reminded of Wizman's earlier reminder about Vintage, though. I haven't been on a Vintage raid obviously, but there seems to be some evidence they may really have their s* together too, and might make it pretty far faster than people expect.



That's the majority opinion inside Tem itself, that we'll eventually crack PoTime, and that there's a strong chance it will happen during the next 3-6 months. We've got a couple of major fights left to conquer, we've tested the waters on them already and have an idea how we're going to get them down, and as Ravenwing said, we're heading into an upswing season in terms of attendance.

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Just thought I'd mention that Temerity is always accepting applications. Visit our website at www.temerityguild.org and peruse our New Members section for more info.

/tongue in cheek off

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Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be, alive and breathing.

In the interest of fairness and equality among guilds, here are links to six other guilds on the server. As far as I know, all of them are also accepting applications.

Vintage at http://www.eqvintage.com/
Destiny at http://destiny.guildportal.com/
Dark Conquest at http://www.darkconquest.org/
Pathfinders of Al'Kabor at http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?G ... abID=77836
Sanctuary at http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?G ... bID=153270
and The Horde at http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=8928

If I missed any guilds that are accepting applications, I apologize. Please post their link in another reply. I am interested in reducing the imbalance our server seems to have in guild membership. as has been already stated multiple times, if your only interest is getting EP flagged, then Temerity is your best bet. However, if your goals for the game are more than just getting uber gear, then I strongly encourage to choose your guild carefully.

This goes back to my reason for starting this discussion in the first place. I would like to create the possibility for people from smaller guilds and unguilded players to get PoP flagged without having to leave their guild to do so. I know of a few guilds that have helped gear and level up new members only to have them leave once they are high level so that the can get PoP flags. I want to try to help the servers smaller guilds maintain their membership so that they can grow and progress. I know this is no easy task, but I want to try. These other guilds all have great people in them that have been in these guilds for years and they are frustrated at losing people that they have helped to start out.

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Aetheas - Wood Elf Druid of Sanctuary
Didgeridoo - Vah Shir Bard of Sanctuary

Please stay with the guild that helped gear and level you up.

This is a very telling quote.

If your interest is only in getting uber gear, then Temerity probably isn't the place for you, I won't speak for Destiny, but would expect a similar response.

When your interest is only gear, then the range of things you would do, even say, is pretty much unlimited as your only goal is the gear. I've regularly seen people in Temerity that have been there years longer than I pass on gear, because in someone else's inventory it will do the raid more benefit than in theirs. The attitude for successful raiding is that the raid comes first. That means that it's not about liking people, but respecting them; it means that increasing the 'power' of your character isn't important, but increasing the power of the raid; it isn't about how well you play, it's about how well you learn; it means it's about the challenge, and the rewards are meeting the challenge and not some new sparkly.

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SEE NEW THREAD



While it is interesting to debate whether it is possible for a random group of people to come together to work on PoP flagging or when Vintage will unlock Time or try very politely to explain why we belong to the guilds we do without stepping on any toes or flinging any stones it does not bring us any closer to putting together a group of people interested in planar progression or other inter guild cooperation.

If you are interested in either co-operative PoP flagging or alternate target co-operation, please post a reply with which (or both) of these interests you and any other info you feel relevant. I will edit this post to make a list of names so we can see how much interest there actually is in either of these endeavors.

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<Sanctuary>
Q: Do real barbarians eat quiche?
A: Real barbarians would hack and slay anyone who offered them quiche to eat, and would then stomp the quiche until it was totally flat. Barbarians are like that.
-Dragon #19

Sorry, but I have to dissect this.



Fairness and equality among those who are following this discussion, but actually aren't aware of the server's guilds and/or are incapable of using Google? Of course every guild on the server is a default state of recruiting. As has been highlighted in this thread repeatedly, numbers and turnover are one of many key challenges on the server.



Please explain the guild membership imbalance problem in more detail. Are you saying you'd rather the server have 7 or 8 equally-populated guilds, and are unhappy at the possibility that 1-3 guilds might have the lion's share of players on the server? Is there some ethical basis for this? As far as I'm aware, people have so far done their best to join whatever guild suited them best on the server, and none have ben coerced. The only way to "correct" that is to try to convince members of the larger guilds to break up and redistribute themselves. Is that what you're asking for? Your other option is to try to drum up outside membership and get another large influx of new players to the server.



Again, please explain your wording here. Wizman already covered this sentence, but seriously, do you think that's what Temerity is about? Gear is a means to an end. We're fighting towards a common goal of guild progression because we enjoy the challenge. I strongly encourage anyone who's in this game solely for personal loot gain to take a hike and not apply to Temerity. Look, every guild has had some bad apples in their past (or even present). But on the whole, Temerity is a friendly, casual guild full of really nice, capable, mature players who aim to work together as best we can to achieve a long term common goal of progression. I get sick of seeing misinformed people level baseless veiled accusations at the guild. It's old. It's like everyone who has ever played EQ has it implanted in their brains that the top guild on every server is full of assholes lacking souls. That may have been largely true on PC servers in many instances, but it's not true here. I've met a few assholes on this server over time, but there wasn't any solid pattern to what guild tag they were carrying. I wouldn't be here if our guild was full of jerks.



PoP is a raiding expansion. By definition, if you're in a tiny guild or unguilded, you can't expect a whole lot out of the PoP flagging process. "High enough level to get PoP flags" is level 46. If your guild is having problems retaining members past level 46, then yes, you've probably got issues, and you should vet your incoming members better so that they understand what to expect and what your goals are. PoP flagging isn't a process that's friendly to small guilds, or even several small guilds banding together. People joining the smaller guilds really shouldn't have PoP progression as a goal. If they do, they're joining the wrong guilds.



Temerity also has great people in it that have been in this guild for years. Arguably over the long term we're doing better at member retention than a lot of guilds on this server, and that really says something. We have members take a leave of absence to finish up their master's degree or because it's their first year with a new child and they don't have time to raid, only to come back 6 months or a year later (or sometimes considerably longer) and raid with us again. As with all things in life, guilds on an EQ server are in many ways part of a Darwinian struggle. The strongest guilds do the best, and the weaker ones will suffer. There's nothing any of us can do to change that really.

If anything, I feel morally compelled to ensure that those new players who eventually will be interested in planar progression *don't* accidentally sign on with a lower-tier guild that has no intents or hopes in those directions. Those are truly sad cases. Eventually they realize their mistake, but so many of them then feel obligated to the family guild they grew up with, that they feel they cannot then leave because it would make them feel bad. They get depressed about their lack of progress, and they'll stick it out with the smaller guild for years, and often eventually just fade away from the game for lack of enjoyment, when they could've had a much better time on the server doing things they were really interested in. I know that plight well, I went through it (repeatedly) on my EQ PC server, which is why I knew better this time around and headed straight for Temerity on this server once I had surveyed the scene. I don't want to name names, but this sad little story has happened numerous times on this server, and the result has been a number of truly great players who were wonderful people feeling stuck and eventually just quitting the server, basically over guilt about guild choices. They would've been far happier tagging with us and raiding with us, but couldn't get over the guilt about the idea of leaving the family guild they joined by mistake and grew to love.

When someone leaves a smaller guild for Temerity, everyone makes us out to be the bad guy for "stealing" a player that grew up with the smaller "family" guild (I put family in scare quotes because Temerity, like virtually all guilds on this server, is also a family). I always view these situations the other way around. People should be looking at the small guilds who latch onto players very early and hope to guilt-trip them into retention with disgust. They're ruining some peoples' gaming experience to try to keep their little concept alive over the years, and they're very frequently dishonest to newbie players about the potential the guild has for progress.

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*hug Cabot*

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<Sanctuary>
Q: Do real barbarians eat quiche?
A: Real barbarians would hack and slay anyone who offered them quiche to eat, and would then stomp the quiche until it was totally flat. Barbarians are like that.
-Dragon #19

Couldn't agree more. That was definitely my story PC-side: joined a small family guild with raiding aspirations, and stuck it out with them out of loyalty, long past the point where it became obvious that my goals and the guild's were incompatible. It made me unhappy and it caused tension within the guild. No good for anyone involved.

I encourage any new Al'Kabor players (who have an interest in raiding) to raid with every guild on the server at least once before they make their decision. I did this, and it was great. I met people in all the guilds, got to see the very different approaches different guilds take to raiding (leadership styles, loot systems, boxing policies, etc.), and just basically had fun. I know for sure that Temerity, Destiny, and DC allow people to come on at least one trial raid, and I'd be surprised if Vintage and Pathfinders didn't have the same policy. People should take advantage of this before tagging with any guild, IMO, because it's just better to make an informed decision.

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Pithy Deathwish, manic mechanic of <Temerity>

Refuse, rubbish, filth, slime, muck and other alt-putrescence:
[ Drat | Dart | Zounds | Slouch | Pouch ]

Hug you too!

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? With a few exceptions (I know of several applications to Temerity that were denied and one player who was denied retagging into DC when the guild bug mess caused all guilds to have to reform) I would assume that players are where they want to be. Some remain unguilded, others are in the guild they are for various reasons, and some change guilds also for various reasons.

Not sure what you mean by an imbalance.

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Rysia Belladonna 65 Wood Elf Rogue
Daria Vervain 65 Wood Elf Druid
Carolee Nightshade 65 Gnome Necromancer
Eraiya Meadowsweet 65 High Elf Enchanter
Kylie Santolina 65 Gnome Magician
Therma Nuclear 65 Dark Elf Wizard
Lillie Hawthorn 65 Human Monk
Karia Melilot 65 Halfling Druid
Lisbeth Artemisias 65 Iksar Shaman
Portia Carrera 65 Half Elf Bard

<Temerity>

What I mean by imbalance is the disproportionate membership numbers between the largest of the raiding guilds, Temerity and the smaller ones Dark Conquest and Pathfinders of Al Kabor. I am leaving out Vintage (I am unsure of it size), Sanctuary (not a raiding guild), and the Horde (not a raiding guild at the moment). I am not saying that the guilds should be exactly equal in size, just more equal. As has been stated in this thread multiple times "if you want to raid the EPs, join Temerity". Whether this is true or not, it is widely believed.

Many of us not in Temerity would like to raid the EPs too. I am simply trying to make this happen. If I do not succeed, I can live with that. But I want to try. Firestorm posted about consolidating guilds. Maybe that is the direction people wish to go, but I doubt it. I know I have no desire to consolidate guilds. And then Corba mentioned Temerity is accepting new applications, maybe he was kidding, but I am trying to create the opportunity for non Temerity people to raid the EPs while staying non Temerity people. I have already made the mistake of applying to Temerity and I want to spare others making the same mistake. I am not saying applying to Temerity is a mistake for all. I have no doubt there are many Temerity members that are very happy being in Temerity; I know Temerity has many great people as members of the guild.

However, it is a mistake for some. The Temerity website boasts about how few people leave Temerity, but it does not mention how many people apply to Temerity and then in the next two months quit the game. I can name you four people who left the Horde this year, applied to Temerity and then left the game. That is just one guild in one year. For this reason, I think our server guild membership imbalance hurts our server population. I think if a way is created for people to remain in smaller guilds where each person matters more while gaining access to the EPs, our server will lose less people. And I know Temerity's members matter to Temerity, but when you have 6 or more of a class it is not as a great of a loss to lose one of them as when a guild only has one or two of a class. Our server has a older crowd that most online games and for that reason, I think people on our server want to matter more. The feeling of not mattering is what drove me away from the game for four months this spring and summer.



Please tell me how I am misinformed. I was a Temerity applicant for almost two months and I know my experience while an applicant and I know the effect it had on me. The process did have its good parts; it was not all bad. But in the end, my feelings about it did cause me to leave the game. Also please point out when I have stated Temerity is full of assholes lacking souls. I hope you are not attempting to have people believe I ever said or even implied such a thing.

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Aetheas - Wood Elf Druid of Sanctuary
Didgeridoo - Vah Shir Bard of Sanctuary

Please stay with the guild that helped gear and level you up.

i was not kidding, i was simply stating the obvious in a facetious manner.

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Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this chance to be, alive and breathing.